Curse

glountz · Jun 22, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I think your beginning to exaggerate. Ever since Enraged Lunge appeared, pet's have been a reliable source of sustainable damage. People have been taking Beastmaster teams on missions for quite a while (I know I have). Sure we'll never do DoA with a pet team but I can live with that.

PvP? We go to TA and get glad points with 3 BM's and a monk. We have even had limited success in HA. (Well, before Para/rit spike nd hex pressure became 'the thing' anyways). It's niche. Not the most powerful course, but it works to a certain degree. More importantly it's fun.
They are a constantly renewable resource that can dish out fairly good damage (especially when they can auto-crit for around 53 damage. 100+ with certain skills). They can Dazed. Have the ability to not be blocked. Sure they can't deep wound (without R/P) but they can lock skills for 20 seconds every 10. It may be a gimmick but it's not completely redundant. Being a Thumper is sooooo much fun also. Even without RaO. It's not as bad as you make out.

Yeah but my point is that beastmastery alone can do shit. If you're a thumper, you're relying a lot more on your hammer skill and expertise than on your pet. Same goes for barragers, they use barrage and bows, the pet is just a bonus (and in B/P it's worst it's a corpse producer... Anything an honorable ranger would despise...).
What I mean is that going pure Beastmaster is less efficient than going pure marksman (for interrupt) or even pure wilderness (for trapping). Especially since no pet skill, except for Revive animal, can affect more than one pet now (killing any pet synergy a lone beastmaster did have: before beasmastery changes, you could take one beastmaster to boost every other pets armor (I was using the old Otyugh cry, yes i swear ^^), thus providing a very good use. Now the beastmaster can only affect is own pet, which destroys the synergy it could have before by bringing lots of pets on secondary rangers.

SotiCoto · Jun 22, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

*Laughs at Bazompora just for the hell of it*

/Signed

When it comes down to it... nobody should have to waste two skill slots just to maintain some retarded Leeroy Jenkins of an animal... especially when at the core of it all it only takes one skill slot to maintain a Flesh Golem or Shambling Horror.

Bazompora · Jun 22, 2007, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

*Laughs at Bazompora just for the hell of it*

Is this the kind of "counter-argument" I get from now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

it only takes one skill slot to maintain a Flesh Golem or Shambling Horror.

• The Flesh Golem takes 1 Elite skill slot.
• The Shambling Horror can only be maintained if one fills a 2nd skill slot with a skill to heal it.

Free Runner · Jun 22, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

/unsigned

I play around with beastmaster builds alot. Before i even thought of trying out BM i was well for the merge of Charm + Comfort. Not anymore.

Like said before Charm Animal is your pet. Comfort is your pets heal and res combined. I see no need now to put the two together.

Also what is the fad in this thread with Minions and Pets? you can control pets and allow them to deal conditions through BM. Your pet does not turn hostile to anything around it when you die and it remains with you all the time. It can be healed and ressurected through a single skill.

Minions will attack anything that isnt on their side whilst allied with a MM without control and they have a natural -10 degen. Sure MMs can heal them but at the cost of sacreficing their own health the more minions their are. They cannot be resurrected and require corpses to be made. Again the moment a MM dies the Minions turn hostile and can go on a rampage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

it only takes one skill slot to maintain a Flesh Golem

Now tell me what kind of skill Flesh Golem is? last i heard it was an Elite skill.....it takes an elite skill slot straight off the bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Yeah but my point is that beastmastery alone can do shit.

BS

Have you even tried Beast Mastery with anything that isnt a Thumper? Most of the Pet skills can deal conditions. Some can interupt. And the damage at high BM levels is evil.

Quote:

Name another skill that does anything like this; I am unaware of any, so I am asking here (be nice) is there another skill that simply takes up residence in your skill slot bar and does nothing?

Does nothing? does nothing?! Charm Animal brings a level 5-20 companion that can evolve into 3 stages,has its own control panel and even has a huge range of skills to be used with it!

Quote:

Beast Masters aquired a negative reputation in the early days, which never faded away. But, again, that's the playerbase's fault for not readjusting their view, not the game mechanics'!

^ QFT. Most players are too scared to stray from their cookie cutter builds to even try BM out. They would rather go for SP Sins,SF Eles and SS Necros than the "forbidden" Beast Master.

Oh and one last thing

Quote:

You are a pure flamer and troll.
I made points and you nitpicked each of my sentence, twisting my words the first one.

Because someone doesnt agree with the things you say and has a counter argument does not make them a flamer/troll.

yarddog · Jun 22, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

/signed i really like the idea of having an extra slot for another skill

frojack · Jun 22, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

^ There it is...

Just try it out more. From your assertion that a Beastmaster alone can 'do shit' I would wager you need more practice. Or perhaps more experimentation. There was a reason Thumper's began replacing certain warrior builds for damage. Also you can't just divorce yourself from the synergy of having 2 damage lines (be it hammer/spear or even bow if you want the mediocre). It's like any other class only putting attribute points into 1 line.

A pet and a Spear chucker'/hammer ranger does far more raw damage than a ranger with a bow (Burning Arrow rangers being and exception). Simple fact is Bows can't Deep wound, while Thumper/spear builds can. Having a full-spec pet doesn't necessarily mean a replacement for your damage. That's actually pretty silly these days. You need to see it as augmentation. Like running a damage supplemental like Conjure or Brutal Weapon but far more potent.

Another misconception is the belief that you need to run 9 expertise to make it worth it. You don't when you have adrenal skills on your bar. I normally run 15/16 Bm, 12 Hm and rest in Exp. When you can max both Hammer and Beast mastery, the damage numbers are rather impressive. My hammer usually crits for around 68 while the pet crits for around 53 (give or take a few. Can't remember for sure). Significant damage.
Then theres the fact that pet's don't get dp in pve, and nobody usually targets them in pvp since they know the real problem is the Beasmaster controling them.

Regardless... Just because something isn't the most powerful course, doesn't mean it isn't viable.

EDIT: Let me rephrase: You don't need 9 expertise 'unless' you plan to use RaO

glountz · Jun 22, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

BS
Have you even tried Beast Mastery with anything that isnt a Thumper? Most of the Pet skills can deal conditions. Some can interupt. And the damage at high BM levels is evil.

BS?
Yes I tried several BEastmastery builds. And they suck if you don't bring anything else.
"high damage at high BM" sorry, bring numbers to the table. Yeah, you know real numbers, not just "feelings". Like the one on wiki that has been tested a lot of time by numerous players and say that the DPS of a Dire pet is around 13 damage/second, so completely pitiful.
Interrupts? Conditions? With a pet? ARE YOU MAD? Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. A bow can do all this with a lot more success. Even using your expertise with distracting shot is better than any pet interrupt. Trying interrupting a opponent with a pet is like trying to wand to death a prot monk. Sometimes it works. But this is just luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

^ QFT. Most players are too scared to stray from their cookie cutter builds to even try BM out. They would rather go for SP Sins,SF Eles and SS Necros than the "forbidden" Beast Master.

Don't you think that beastmasters in PvP has never been tried? Don't you think in PVE full ranger teams are not tried also? I tried several beast mastery builds. It works relatively.. But as soon as you have to deal damage quickly, to disrupt, to heal or even to tank, or in High-End PVE or PvP, beast mastery sucks. Not less than, say, a meleemancer or a mending warrior, but just are so less efficient that they are just not worth it excepted for the fun.

Frojack, I told you, that's not your pet that is thereatening in Thumper builds, that's your hammer. You would just keep your pet at home and run RaO if it were working without needing your pet alive. Heck, thumpers are builded the same way that touch rangers in fact... That's only another expertise (would it be small) abuse.
Even with no Beast mastery, with frenzy and no point in BM a thumper is still viable. But remove the hammer or expertise, just to do something with your pet alone, you'll see that doesn't work.

Evilsod · Jun 22, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

Is this the kind of "counter-argument" I get from now?

• The Flesh Golem takes 1 Elite skill slot.
• The Shambling Horror can only be maintained if one fills a 2nd skill slot with a skill to heal it.

If the Shambling Horror dies its no big deal. If the pet dies, your well and truly boned.

Mareak Humner · Jun 22, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Does nothing? does nothing?! Charm Animal brings a level 5-20 companion that can evolve into 3 stages,has its own control panel and even has a huge range of skills to be used with it!

The skill button itself, once the charmed animal is with you, the skill is assigned a slot, it then does nothing. I can not use it for anything, leaving players that bring charmed animals with them 7 skill slots.
That to me is unbalanced. And yes the BM has a wide range of skills that can be used thru the pet, and everyone of them takes up a skill slot, which mean in order to use that one BM skill, there has to be TWO skill slots for it.

For instance look at capture signet, it gets used and replaced with a usable skill slot right? the charm animal skill does simply bring the animal with the BM, but thats all. Now if I could use it to say "release" the pet and if I choose to attempt to re-charm it, or heal it, or select a different pet to swap out with (mostly cosmetics there) it would be used for SOMETHING.
The charmed animal is unlike the combo attacks, where skill one, then two , then the third (or fourth) require they be used consecutively the charm animal skill is NOT used.
It is also unlike the necro spells, that can get used each time they want to create an undead creature. It is not used, it has to be equipped, (providing you have charmed an animal ) and take up a skill slot, and then do nothing.

What I am getting at is the fact that the skill button takes up a slot and unless your attempting to charm a pet, it does not get used. No other skill that takes up a slot does that. Giving it the ability to heal, or select a different pet or *something* would give the BM a *use* for the charm animal skill.

*suggestions*
The charm animal skill could be made, like the capture signet, use it to charm animal and then until that pet is released, that pet will simply always be with you, as long as the player stays a ranger, no skill need be equipped to have the pet with you.
OR
Allow it to pick from previously charmed animals, something along those lines
OR
Like this thread started with allow it to heal the pet.
OR
Allow a BM to pick a skill to associate with the charmed animal skill. (ya I know I am reaching here; but I am hopefully making my point.) Rangers, even IF they were able to assign a skill to be used WITH the charm animal skill, you still will not see in game as many rangers as you do warrior/monks. Talking about overall game balance, how many players ever get killed by a rangers pet? How many even feel threatened by a pet? Allowing the charm animal skill to be used for something else other than than reducing the usable skills a ranger has; I feel has merit.

/SIGNED

Hawkeye · Jun 22, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Solution is simple. Pets can be ressed by anyone.. monks.. anyone.
Comfort Animal gets a slight heal boost, allowing you to still have an advantage over a monk regarding healing your own pet.

Done.

Why can't pets be ressed by monks? Hell if I know. Perhaps you need a freakin' vet monk to res a pet. It's stupid. There's your solution right there... stop yapping your mouths. You're scaring away the chicks.

Free Runner · Jun 22, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

BS?
Yes I tried several BEastmastery builds. And they suck if you don't bring anything else.
"high damage at high BM" sorry, bring numbers to the table. Yeah, you know real numbers, not just "feelings". Like the one on wiki that has been tested a lot of time by numerous players and say that the DPS of a Dire pet is around 13 damage/second, so completely pitiful.

Want numbers? fine by me. Here we go.

At 12 BM my Dire Pet (Black Widow so Piercing Damage)

- On a 60AL Target the pets damage ranged from 21-34 at its normal attack speed with critical hits hitting for 42-44.
- On a 80AL target the pets damage ranged from 16-26 at a normal attack speed. Critical hits hitting for 29-32.
- On a 100AL target the pets damage ranged from 13-17 at normal attack speed. Criticals hit for 20-22.

DPS would be around 13 like you said

At 16 BM the Dire Pet:

- On a 60AL target the pets damage ranged from 24-39 at normal attack speed. Criticals were 41-47
- On a 80AL target the pets damage ranged from 18-28 at its normal attack speed. Criticals this time hit for 31-35
- On a 100AL target the pets damage ranged for 12-18 at its normal attack speed. Criticals hit this time for 21-24

DPS 15

This is all without skill use and speed increases which would take it to around 20 DPS. Then remember tha some of the skills inflict damage based on the condition of its target for instance Brutal Strike deals damage to foes who have <50% health and Melandrus Strike deals damage to all nearby foes based on if that foe has enchantments on them.

Then there are the conditions that can be inflicted on a pet which if i'm not mistaken are Bleeding,Poison,Dazed and Cripple? at " the high level" or i'll just say 16 Bm these conditions can last up to...lets see Poison : 21 seconds ,Bleeding: 26 seconds,Dazed 10 seconds and Cripple 16 seconds.

So if you combine IAS buffs and Conditions you will see your "Pitiful Damage"

Quote:

Interrupts? Conditions? With a pet? ARE YOU MAD? Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. A bow can do all this with a lot more success. Even using your expertise with distracting shot is better than any pet interrupt. Trying interrupting a opponent with a pet is like trying to wand to death a prot monk. Sometimes it works. But this is just luck.

Sorry of course. I dont know what i'm talking about. I was under the impression we were talking about Beast Masters? Yes a bow can interupt and inflict conditions but a player with a Beast Mastery build isnt exactly gonna be reaching for Burning/Poison Arrow/Apply Poison ect now are they?

So when you play beast mastery builds you dont take any skills that inflict conditions at all?. Oh and you must really suck at interupts. I've managed to interupt casters fine in the past when i used Disrupting Lunge. No wait....its only my luck

I'll pass on wanding the Prot Monk to death though

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mareak Humner

The skill button itself, once the charmed animal is with you, the skill is assigned a slot, it then does nothing. I can not use it for anything, leaving players that bring charmed animals with them 7 skill slots.
That to me is unbalanced. And yes the BM has a wide range of skills that can be used thru the pet, and everyone of them takes up a skill slot, which mean in order to use that one BM skill, there has to be TWO skill slots for it.

Yes but if the merge came into play Charm Animal would be like this:

-It brings your pet into battle
-It heals your pet
-It resses your pet

Oh course i took that from Nevins post on page 1 because i read what he had and realised a possible solution. An Elite skill with these properties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

{E}Bond Animal: 10 Energy 3 Cast Time 15 Recharge
Skill. Charm target animal. Once charmed, your animal companion will travel with you whenever you have bond animal equipped. If targeted on animal companion you heal it for 30..97 [125] Health. If your animal companion is dead, it is resurrected with 10..54 [75]% Health.

Of course you would need to cap the pet again and something should be put in place to stop Charm Animal and Bond Animal from being used on the same bar (much like how Kurzick and Luxon skills cannot be used together if they are the same skill) but its pretty much the same right?

glountz · Jun 22, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Want numbers? fine by me. Here we go.

At 12 BM my Dire Pet (Black Widow so Piercing Damage)

- On a 60AL Target the pets damage ranged from 21-34 at its normal attack speed with critical hits hitting for 42-44.
- On a 80AL target the pets damage ranged from 16-26 at a normal attack speed. Critical hits hitting for 29-32.
- On a 100AL target the pets damage ranged from 13-17 at normal attack speed. Criticals hit for 20-22.

DPS would be around 13 like you said

At 16 BM the Dire Pet:

- On a 60AL target the pets damage ranged from 24-39 at normal attack speed. Criticals were 41-47
- On a 80AL target the pets damage ranged from 18-28 at its normal attack speed. Criticals this time hit for 31-35
- On a 100AL target the pets damage ranged for 12-18 at its normal attack speed. Criticals hit this time for 21-24

DPS 15

This is all without skill use and speed increases which would take it to around 20 DPS. Then remember tha some of the skills inflict damage based on the condition of its target for instance Brutal Strike deals damage to foes who have <50% health and Melandrus Strike deals damage to all nearby foes based on if that foe has enchantments on them.

To have this DPS you have to invest in Beast mastery (and yet it is still pitiful). Damage was never its strenght and will never be. Most beastmasters need something else to have a correct pressure. Like a hammer or a spear with 12 in its attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Then there are the conditions that can be inflicted on a pet which if i'm not mistaken are Bleeding,Poison,Dazed and Cripple? at " the high level" or i'll just say 16 Bm these conditions can last up to...lets see Poison : 21 seconds ,Bleeding: 26 seconds,Dazed 10 seconds and Cripple 16 seconds.

So if you combine IAS buffs and Conditions you will see your "Pitiful Damage"

Sorry of course. I dont know what i'm talking about. I was under the impression we were talking about Beast Masters? Yes a bow can interupt and inflict conditions but a player with a Beast Mastery build isnt exactly gonna be reaching for Burning/Poison Arrow/Apply Poison ect now are they?

So when you play beast mastery builds you dont take any skills that inflict conditions at all?. Oh and you must really suck at interupts. I've managed to interupt casters fine in the past when i used Disrupting Lunge. No wait....its only my luck

I'll pass on wanding the Prot Monk to death though

1)Like if the duration of the conditions would matter! Having say a 25 energy skill causing dazed for 189 seconds is completely useless. In PvP it will be removed before it lasts its full duration. In PVE the monster dies long before it lasts its full duration, or you'd better quit GW.
2) My point was IAS and Conditions can be used on a bow with better success. Most conditions from pets attacks are highly conditionnal. In marksman you have BHA, interrupts, Burning arrow, Concussion shot. Each of these are mostly unconditionnal and fast recharging. Again, I would use RaO without the pet if I didn't needed it to make it work. Bringing the pet cost me 2 skill slots. That is too imbalanced IMHO.
When people want to spread conditions, they take bow skills, not pet ones.
3) Yes I did manage to interrupt some elementalists with disrupting also thanks. What's your success rate? 1/100? A 2 sec interrupt is useless, especially when you can't control when it will land. You can just spam it and hope it will interrupt some skills.
Don't try to even compare disrupting lunge with bow interrupts like savage shot, bow interrupts are the best interrupts of this game IMO, with their ridiculous cost/recharge, even more than the costy conditionnal ones from our friends the mesmers.
4) I like my pets. Charm animal need to be a 10 sec rez also, not only a waste of a slot.

Free Runner · Jun 22, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

1)Like if the duration of the conditions would matter! Having say a 25 energy skill causing dazed for 189 seconds is completely useless. In PvP it will be removed before it lasts its full duration. In PVE the monster dies long before it lasts its full duration, or you'd better quit GW

.

But its adds towards the damage correct?the degen from the skill i mean. If i had a skill that could cause 189 seconds i would call it far from useless.

Thats free interupts to any of the targets deadly spells! of course it can be removed as you say. But without condition removals that duration would matter alot to the enemy.At the speed the skills recharge it can be reapplied again.

Quote:

2) My point was IAS and Conditions can be used on a bow with better success. Most conditions from pets attacks are highly conditionnal. In marksman you have BHA, interrupts, Burning arrow, Concussion shot. Each of these are mostly unconditionnal and fast recharging. Again, I would use RaO without the pet if I didn't needed it to make it work. Bringing the pet cost me 2 skill slots. That is too imbalanced IMHO.

When people want to spread conditions, they take bow skills, not pet ones.

I agree with you. Bows are better at IAS and Conditions. But when you run a BM build it doesnt hurt to have a condition infliction on does it?

Oh and bringing a non elite skill that gives you a lvl 20 animal companion you can control,along with being to heal and res that animal with the same skill is not imbalanced??

Quote:

3) Yes I did manage to interrupt some elementalists with disrupting also thanks. What's your success rate? 1/100? A 2 sec interrupt is useless, especially when you can't control when it will land. You can just spam it and hope it will interrupt some skills.
Don't try to even compare disrupting lunge with bow interrupts like savage shot, bow interrupts are the best interrupts of this game IMO, with their ridiculous cost/recharge, even more than the costy conditionnal ones from our friends the mesmers.

I dont think i ever did compare DL with bow interupts such as D-Shot and S-Shot. Perhaps you can point me to where i did and i will gladly admit i was wrong. Savage Shot and Disrupting Shot are amongst the best interupts of this game. When i first brought up Interupts i mentioned that a pet has a way to interupt to which i was told i didnt know what i was talking about. Never did i say that DL was better than all the rest.

Oh and on the 1/100 thing? i personally dont let the foe my pet is attacking live long enough for even a 5th try.

Quote:

4) I like my pets. Charm animal need to be a 10 sec rez also, not only a waste of a slot.

But its not really a waste is it? it does something........it brings the pets you like so much to the battle!!. It acts as a way to capture the pet and activate it when you enter an instance or PvP arena!

I was hoping you would comment back your thought on the idea of a second skill which would be classed as an Elite Skill with the properties of Comfort + Charm in one. But i think i already know your answer.

shirosae · Jun 22, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Charm Animal is a non-elite skill which allows you to bring a level 20 multi-purpose permenant ally... that shares your attribute pool and skillbar. It can be like trying to run both a Warrior and an Assassin using a total of eight slots and 200 attribute points.

This stuff about merging Charm Animal with Comfort Animal is a misnomer. The problem is that a Beastmasters skillbar is far too compressed to do what a Ranger speccing in other lines can do easily. That is: Keep him and his weapon alive, do damage or spread conditions, and have a res and self heal.

Assuming i use the pet for damage and don't play a thumper, i'm probably using Enraged Lunge. I have Charm and Comfort, and Call of Protection. I'm going for pet damage, so i put Call of Haste on too. I need at least one more skill to max Enraged Lunge out without casting Comfort repeatedly, so i take Brutal Strike, Disrupting, Pred's Pounce or such.

And i want a Res, so my skillbar looks like this:

Enraged Lunge
Predator's Pounce
Comfort Animal
>
Call of Haste
Call of Protection
Charm Animal
Flesh of my Flesh

What do i do with my one remaining slot? Take points out of Expertise, put them into Wilderness so i can have a single self heal and keep alive skill? Use Predatory Bond with the downtime? Natural Stride and rely on the healers?

And then i'm damage dealing with two attack skills? I think the change to Otyugh's Cry was perfect: Now i have the perfect tool for killing those annoying Ranger mobs with Whirling/Lightning Reflexes. That still takes up my spare slot (so i have no defensive skill on my Beastmaster), but i can at least destroy those mobs in a few seconds with Enraged Lunge and another attack.

If i were to take Heal as One, it solves the defensive problem, but causes me another: How do i do damage? Rely on Feral/Poison degen? Start spamming 10e skills like Brutual/Scavengers?

>
>
>
Heal as One
Call of Haste
Call of Protection
Charm Animal
Flesh of my Flesh

Rather than merge Comfort Animal and Charm Animal, i'd rather they added Beastmastery skills which aid both the Beastmaster and his pet.

Rampage as One - back before even the first nerf - was a somewhat good example. Rather then offensive abilities however, i'd rather they buffed existing defensive pet skills to provide that missing 'keep alive' function for the Ranger himself.

I like Beastmastery a lot, and it's gotten better since the pet controls - but there are still some aspects that are woolly.

I think the survival side of Beastmastery is one. I think the way conditional pet attacks work is another - they're just too unpredictable (with the exception of Disrupting Lunge pre-nerf, which was a ridiculously fun spammable 5 second distracting shot) for the recast timer.

I'd also rather that there were alternatives to Enraged Lunge for damage dealing. Simply, i can't recreate the effectiveness of that elite using a similar number of alternate pet attacks. Because of that, i'm pushed away from the one skill that would ease the defensive problem (Heal as One), straight into a damage problem.

Solution: If there were two skills - a Troll Unguent and Natural Stride in the Beastmastery line that applied identical effects to pet and ranger, my skillbar could look like this:

Enraged Lunge
Predator's Pounce
Disrupting Lunge
Beastmastery Troll Unguent
Beastmastery Natural Stride
Call of Haste
Charm Animal
Flesh of my Flesh

And suddenly, i have no more trouble keeping myself or my pet alive than i do when using a bow.

The solution doesn't need to be those exact changes, just the function of those changes - to provide shared defensive skills to the player and pet to compress the skillbar a bit.

Also, i still like the idea of being able to charm and raise multiple pets (though obviously not to use multiple pets simultaneously). Changes to the conditional skills (giving them a cast time or whatever) would be welcomed by me, even if they were only active in PvE.

frojack · Jun 22, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

The Natural Stride counterpart you have in the form of Run as One, albeit somewhat weaker. Something as strong as NS for both the the pet and the Bm (50% Block) would be too strong in my opinion.

The self-heal is a tricky one. Obvious choice is Heal as One. On an 8 second recharge, it's pretty good these days. Thanks to this skill alone I go thumping in pve as well as pvp. It's just far more satisfying to bash things than it is to fire arrows. Naturally in pve you have monks watching you, but it's a good skill that also frees up a slot.
It would be nice to have non-elite heals in the spirit of HaO though. Perhaps a change to Comfort Animal allowing it to heal the user as well as the pet. Putting it's recharge to something like 12 and leaving it's stats as is but healing the user for the same amount as the pet.... This would make HaO look like a really poor elite.
If the 75% hp clause was added and the healing dropped from 110 at 16 to 82 (maybe even less), would be enough to balance it I think. Or leave it at it's initial stats while allowing it to heal the player, but make it cost 15 energy under a 10 second recharge. Expertise will bring this down but It's still expensive enough to make it a considerable investment.

Bazompora · Jun 22, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Charm Animal, after having charmed an animal with it, is a passive skill! This means it does have a function like all other skills, but you don't need to click it to activate it's function.

The skill function of Charm Animal (when an animal has been captured with it)is:
a formerly captured animal is summoned, for infinite duration this animal follows you as an ally and can be controlled by only you. This skill can not be deactivated and is kept up for no energy cost.

Now really ... why would such a great skill be a waste of a skill slot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirosae

Rather than merge Comfort Animal and Charm Animal, i'd rather they added Beastmastery skills which aid both the Beastmaster and his pet.

Now that's more like a true Beast Master.

Buffing Charm Animal with a second skill function, would make many non-Beast Master builds, that just bring along a companion for additional dmg and defense, overpowered!

glountz · Jun 23, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

.
Oh and bringing a non elite skill that gives you a lvl 20 animal companion you can control,along with being to heal and res that animal with the same skill is not imbalanced??

IMO, no.
If you take any minion skill, and compare it to Charm animal, frankly it's not.
In PVE that means finding him and training him.
When your pet dies it disables all of your skills. If you're only secondary that hurts.
Minions need corpses. They are not so controllable, have somewhat weaker armor due to their low level (excepted when you cheat in PVE... Bringing your death magic to 17-18 by blessings eggs and so on...) and accumulate degen. But actually when they die you.. gain energy. They deal damage too. But the worst of it that most of them have one secondary effect WITHOUT ANY NEED OF OTHER SKILLS, like giving you health, having two lifes, being ranged with severe DPS, or putting bleeding for each attack. And you know what's beautiful on top of that? You can not have one, but up to 10 minions. And when you have, tanking ability or DPS outclass completely any beast master.
And all that can be in ONE skill. I repeat, ONE. In corpses abundant areas, I don't even take a skill to heal my minions.
When your pet dies, you have to bring another skill to be able to use it again. pets are somewhat immune to regular rez, I wonder why. For a MM, you just need to kill another creature, and then use the same skill you used to produce your first minion, again and again.

Either minions skills are overpowered, or either beast mastery need some tweakings again.

I will stop writing in this thread. I was not trying to say beastmasters are useless. But I am saying that they still are not optimal in the ranger potentialities.

shirosae · Jun 23, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

The Natural Stride counterpart you have in the form of Run as One, albeit somewhat weaker. Something as strong as NS for both the the pet and the Bm (50% Block) would be too strong in my opinion.

Can i ask why you think that?

I mean right now pets can get an unremovable massive duration cheap -21 damage reduction. Rangers, if they spec in Wilderness (which a Bow ranger would for the stances, unless he was taking Lightning Reflexes instead), can already get Natural Stride.

Call of Haste, which i run on a Pet if i'm looking for damage, already has that +25 % movement speed bonus.

Call of Protection is, in my opinion, more powerful than Natural Stride. The skill would be weaker than Natural Stride and Call of Protection trigger alongside, and would have the sole benefit of compressing the skillbar (which is the whole point).

I was almost really happy with Never Rampage as One, with the +3 HP regen. If that was instead a block chance or damage reduction or something, ...it would be run by thumpers and probably better than pure Beastmasters. Hmm.

Quote:

The self-heal is a tricky one. Obvious choice is Heal as One. On an 8 second recharge, it's pretty good these days. Thanks to this skill alone I go thumping in pve as well as pvp. It's just far more satisfying to bash things than it is to fire arrows. Naturally in pve you have monks watching you, but it's a good skill that also frees up a slot.

For a thumper, HaO is brilliant. For a pure Beastmaster, it strips you of Enraged Lunge. Sure, i could run HaO with some non-Enraged Lunge attacks, but i feel that i need my Beastmaster to be a viable party member if i'm going to take that and not spike with Glass Arrows + Brutal Weapon.

Running Enraged Lunge with enough Beast skills and Otyugh's Cry, i feel like i have a distinct function within the group - considerable sustainable damage, and the ability to go straight through blocking. I can't say the same as soon as i take Enraged Lunge out.

Quote:

It would be nice to have non-elite heals in the spirit of HaO though. Perhaps a change to Comfort Animal allowing it to heal the user as well as the pet. Putting it's recharge to something like 12 and leaving it's stats as is but healing the user for the same amount as the pet.... This would make HaO look like a really poor elite.
If the 75% hp clause was added and the healing dropped from 110 at 16 to 82 (maybe even less), would be enough to balance it I think. Or leave it at it's initial stats while allowing it to heal the player, but make it cost 15 energy under a 10 second recharge. Expertise will bring this down but It's still expensive enough to make it a considerable investment.

What if Symbiotic Bond was expanded a bit: When triggered, you and your pet share one HP bar (with both max HP added together). As such, healing your pet with Comfort Animal would heal the joint HP bar, and monks healing you would also heal that joint HP bar? Maybe if other things were carried along that bond, like stances/buffs/hexes/conditions etc?

You'd give up the advantage of having a separate disposable entity on the field, but in exchange you'd gain massive HP with the best skills from both sides?

Of course, with the massive increase in HP, you'd be much harder to spike in PvP. Probably a bad idea, unless it was PvE only. Actually thinking about it, you'd gain all the benefits from other skills in a completely ridiculous over the top way - Call of Haste would suddenly become a low cost infinite Rampage as One. A bit much.

I do still think that concentrating on the defensive side of things is the way to go, unless Anet want to start adding Pet Attacks that rival Enraged Lunge builds on their own (which would be bad, imo).

Bazompora · Jun 23, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Charm animal
In PVE that means finding him and training him

... and getting to keep him for indefinite duration!

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

When your pet dies it disables all of your skills. If you're only secondary that hurts.

Not much, if you invest enough in Beast Mastery rank, like Beast Masters should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Minions
when they die you.. gain energy.

That does not result from the differences between pets and minions;
• as a primary Necromancer, I also gain energy when pets die, granted I invest in Soul Reaping rank;
• primary Rangers can invest in Expertise to reduce energy cost for skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

They deal damage too. But the worst of it that most of them have one secondary effect WITHOUT ANY NEED OF OTHER SKILLS

They are also all RANGING FROM LOW LEVEL 13 TO 18 (except for the Flesh Golem, summoned by an Elite Spell) on Minion Masters with 16 Death Mastery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

In corpses abundant areas, I don't even take a skill to heal my minions.

• Corpses abundant = very steep requirement for MM.
• Since the last couple of nerfs to Soul Reaping, replacing minions on the fly instead of healing them, became quite costy in energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

When your pet dies, you have to bring another skill to be able to use it again. pets are somewhat immune to regular rez, I wonder why.

• If pets could be resurrected by "regular" resurrection skills, "pet resurrecting" skills would have to be removed, in order to compensate.
• If pets would be treated as "regular" party members, the care for them would be shifted from the owner to upon the shoulders of the "allready overstressed-during-battle" Monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

For a MM, you just need to kill another creature, and then use the same skill you used to produce your first minion, again and again.

For a pet owner, you have the luxury of not having to kill another fleshy creature to have your pet by your side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Either minions skills are overpowered, or either beast mastery need some tweakings again.

• Beast Mastery: maybe yes.
• Charm Animal: definitely no tweaking, because:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

Buffing Charm Animal with a second skill function, would make many non-Beast Master builds, that just bring along a companion for additional dmg and defense, overpowered!

frojack · Jun 23, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirosae

Can i ask why you think that?

I mean right now pets can get an unremovable massive duration cheap -21 damage reduction. Rangers, if they spec in Wilderness (which a Bow ranger would for the stances, unless he was taking Lightning Reflexes instead), can already get Natural Stride.

Call of Haste, which i run on a Pet if i'm looking for damage, already has that +25 % movement speed bonus.

Call of Protection is, in my opinion, more powerful than Natural Stride. The skill would be weaker than Natural Stride and Call of Protection trigger alongside, and would have the sole benefit of compressing the skill-bar (which is the whole point).

Well contrary to the guys playing quote wars in this thread, I happen to think that Beastmasters are pretty strong. They need to be weak in one aspect or another. Having something like NS provide 50% block and 33% speed would just be too much. Opponents need to be able to neutralise the bm somewhat by either the Bm or the pet itself. Like you say you can get this kind of functionality with the use of other skills, but that requires more skill slots so it's balanced.

While I can understand the conundrum of a pure Beastmaster (I used to, and occasionally still, play pure bm) the damage options of a thumper or spear chucker can't be ignored quite simply because they exist. If you increase pet damage across the board, you end up over-powering the other 2. Having 2 damage lines is just such a major advantage over having just 1. With the new pet controls it's even possible to split your dps and utility between 2 targets. Or an opponent sticks Insidious on you. You stop attacking and let the pet handle things for a while till it get's removed or ware's off. There are just so many more options.
Incidentally I did some tests again last night. Pet's at 16 actually crit for 58 damage on regular attacks (at least my dire wolf Omachi does). Significantly high for a damage assistant. Not amazing for your sole damage.
To get over this, Anet could possibly introduce weapons for Beastmasters but that's a messy solution (and expensive in terms of time).

Quote:

I was almost really happy with Never Rampage as One, with the +3 HP regen. If that was instead a block chance or damage reduction or something, ...it would be run by thumpers and probably better than pure Beastmasters. Hmm.

For a thumper, HaO is brilliant. For a pure Beastmaster, it strips you of Enraged Lunge. Sure, i could run HaO with some non-Enraged Lunge attacks, but i feel that i need my Beastmaster to be a viable party member if i'm going to take that and not spike with Glass Arrows + Brutal Weapon.

That's the thing you see. Thumpers and spear chuckers are just inherently stronger than pure pet Bm's. Anet could affect this by adding Beastmaster staves that increase pet abilities: 20% pet damage increase for a customised stave. Vampiric staves for a vampiric pet. 20% ap staves. Elemental staves. Inherrant dps upgrades (+15 damage per attack (or attack skill) while you use the staves). Things like that...
It could work, but again the balance is dubious at best. Pet's can be ressed forever as long as the BM has the energy. However pet's get dp in pvp. Do they lose dp when you get a morale boost? Haven't tried it extensively enough to find out, but things like this need to be checked for balance. I'm sure Anet have considered this already.

Again you can upgrade your bows all you want with skills like those, you will still deal less damage than a thumper/spear guy with a pet. Plus the Thumper/Spear guy has sustainable dual-dps without the need for supplements so he can pack utility. While the buff ranger needs to keep re-applying his buffs and has far less space (and energy) for utility. Energy is a big thing also. In addition to having dual-dps lines you also have dual energy lines when you factor in adrenaline on hammers and spears.

Quote:

Running Enraged Lunge with enough Beast skills and Otyugh's Cry, i feel like i have a distinct function within the group - considerable sustainable damage, and the ability to go straight through blocking. I can't say the same as soon as i take Enraged Lunge out.

Enraged is a great elite. I used to be bound to it indefinitely also. However there are other options which may not be as potent in raw damage but still offer quality. For example my bm crew did Raisu a while back using Melandru's Assualt under an Orders necro to do impressive damage to single targets and great aoe. Mixed with Brutal Strike you get some very potent offense. This is only sustainable under Feral Lunge.

Quote:

What if Symbiotic Bond was expanded a bit: When triggered, you and your pet share one HP bar (with both max HP added together). As such, healing your pet with Comfort Animal would heal the joint HP bar, and monks healing you would also heal that joint HP bar? Maybe if other things were carried along that bond, like stances/buffs/hexes/conditions etc?

You'd give up the advantage of having a separate disposable entity on the field, but in exchange you'd gain massive HP with the best skills from both sides?

Of course, with the massive increase in HP, you'd be much harder to spike in PvP. Probably a bad idea, unless it was PvE only. Actually thinking about it, you'd gain all the benefits from other skills in a completely ridiculous over the top way - Call of Haste would suddenly become a low cost infinite Rampage as One. A bit much.

This is actually an awesome idea! I really like the idea of really 'becoming one' with your pet and sharing hp, energy, conditions, hexes etc. All the buffs bar Otyugh's Cry and Call of Prot could work. (Call of Haste could but it would need a few changes). Theres no saying this combined hp need be exactly double. It could be inline with a Melandru Dervish under Vital Boon. Perhaps maxing out somewhere between 600 - 700 hp. There are exploits though. You could activate it and put your pet in idle mode so he'll have less change of being attacked.

There are more problems with it that I'd rather not get into right now, but it is definitely worth investigating. It would probably have to be elite also and have a similar cost structure to RaO. I dunno'... Great idea though!